tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post4389999833919176658..comments2023-12-18T19:38:22.023-08:00Comments on The Good Portion: Book Talk: Kingdom Coming, The Rise of Christian NationalismLaurie M.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-72199214869162002412012-03-18T21:25:58.040-07:002012-03-18T21:25:58.040-07:00Well, John, where to start....First, thanks, as al...Well, John, where to start....First, thanks, as always for your thoughtful, enthusiastic, and good-natured input!<br /><br />Secondly, I certainly did not mean to in any way imply that not seeking to rule meant not seeking to shine as lights in the world, and in whatever our sphere of influence might be. There is a great difference. Wilberforce, for example, did not seek to take over the government and bring rule to the like-minded, but to change hearts (mainly professing-Christian hearts, I might add) through: 1) the example of his own godly life which earned him the respect of hearers, and 2)a persistent message that the African slave trade devalued human dignity. <br /><br />In a largely secular society, where the image of God in man is not respected, the challenge is especially challenging. Like Wilberforce we need to begin, as individuals and as the church, with 1). The Gospel must rule in our own hearts and in our churches. We must become a people of integrity, and from that place we will shine as lights. (As my own pastor said in this evening's discussion - we must become consistent in our own valuing of human life and dignity across the board before we will be taken seriously. This means we don't just value the unborn, but also the migrant worker, and the victim of sex trafficking, etc.)<br /><br />I believe in speaking to social issues, as you well know. I also believe there is a place in every level of a democracy for Christian public servants, and that there are Christians gifted and called to work in such settings. They forward the Gospel and important matters of human dignity in the same way, through their gospel/Christian integrity first, then their message. <br /><br />We Christians in America have spent decades undermining our credibility and integrity with outsiders. We need to commit in future decades to building unity, peace, holiness, and value for ALL human life and dignity within our own hearts and within the Body of Christ and from there we will shine, and the world will know we are His disciples. <br /><br />Even given all this, I keep in mind that Christ came and lived His perfect life, died for our sins, rose from the dead - and was rejected. We cannot expect with a certainty that the whole culture will be transformed, but we can be assured the church will strengthen and grow, and that many will be saved. And we will have clear consciences, knowing that we have displayed a true picture of Christ in this world, and those who have seen it will be accountable for how they respond.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-65855194999332283082012-03-18T15:38:22.175-07:002012-03-18T15:38:22.175-07:00(continuing & ending)
I've said enough for...(continuing & ending)<br />I've said enough for now. The question is how are we as Christians to influence our societies and how are we to exercise our rule? Surely we cannot confine our influence & rule to our homes & churches & leave the poor, oppressed, widows, orphans, strangers & sick to suffer? That would go right against 'true religion' (James 1). No true Christian would say that, however pietistic they might be. But do we stop at charity, dealing with the symptoms not the causes? Are structural interventions - which might be political or economic (e.g. Wilberforce, Shaftesbury, Carey, etc.) - evil? Surely not. And if not how do we as Christians vote? We may reject the Religious Right but should we only vote for secular and anti-Christian parties? Are they really any better than the Religious Right? Even if they are a little better is that the best we can do? Is no other alternative conceivable in the future? Should Christians not seek the best possible society for all, Christian & non-Christian? <br /><br />While the kingdom advances by the proclamation & living out of the gospel - not by political action - nevertheless we Christians are also citizens of this world where we do good works. We cannot avoid politics & economics & in those spheres we should by Christian means seek justice, economic fairness, compassion, peace & freedom in our exercise of neighbour love.<br /><br />So to me it does not seem to be a case of 'no politics' for the Christian but of 'which politics?' & that will vary greatly according to place & circumstances, the voting strength of Christians and the available political options. But never should we as Christians exercise totalitarian or tyrannical rule; that would undermine all kingdom values.John Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115879045701395533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-72652146088545736362012-03-18T15:37:07.123-07:002012-03-18T15:37:07.123-07:00(continuing) Speaking of rule brings me to our cre...(continuing) Speaking of rule brings me to our creation in God's image. A key aspect of that image is rule; we, under God & in accord with his word, are to rule the creatures & creation as good & wise stewards & servants. The fall of course corrupted our rule but the gospel restores all that the fall spoilt. Our relationships to God, our fellow humans & the creation are in principle restored & in practice progressively being restored as we respond to the gospel. If so, we now have to exercise our God-given rule aright, in accordance with the gospel, as humble servants serving Christ. We're not to rule as the world rules, lording it over others, but our rule is inescapable. And that rule would mean ruling our homes, churches, mission organizations, NGO's, charities, orphanages, businesses, etc. And surely that would include schools & colleges? Is it wrong to bring our children up in the faith and to apply our faith to the humanities, arts & sciences? To bring every thought captive to Christ? And would it be wrong to seek justice in the public sphere? <br /><br />That of course is not saying that there is a - only one - Christian position on gay rights, income tax rates, welfare, etc. You're right; there is a confusion between conservatism and Christian values in the Religious Right & I think that causes a great deal of harm & induces justifiable fear. So I'm not for the kind of Christian nationalism Goldberg & you write about but I am sympathetic to much of their critique of secularism. Legitimizing & practising abortion is a great modern evil on a par with the holocaust. In centuries to come most people will look back, just as we do now when we think of slavery & racism, & wonder how people in the 20th & 21st centuries, including many Christians, could kill innocent children in the womb. And I share the horror of the Christian right in regards to recognising same-sex marriage. The way state after state is recognising SSM tells me, according to Romans 1, that America (& South Africa!) is already under God's judgment. So one can understand why many American evangelicals rally round the Religious Right. My problem is that they seem more conservative than Christian & adopt, as you say, the power plays of the world.John Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115879045701395533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-89102208830804124172012-03-18T15:32:43.948-07:002012-03-18T15:32:43.948-07:00Laurie, another stimulating review of a noteworthy...Laurie, another stimulating review of a noteworthy book. <br /><br />As usual your grasp and use of the gospel is spot on. I understand Michelle Goldberg's and your fear of the Religious Right and agree with your critique of their use of worldly power plays. And one cannot impose some version of the Mosaic law on America or any other nation; the Mosaic covenant is now obsolete & replaced by the new covenant. And you're right: the kingdom of God is not advanced by 'Christian' nationalism only by the gospel. <br /><br />I have no crit of your review as such but I do have questions, questions raised by the book & the Religious Right that do need answering, though I'm not asking you to answer them.<br /><br />Goldman speaks of the Christian worldview: "that true Christianity must govern every aspect of public and private life, and that all - government, science, history, culture, and relationships - must be understood according to the dictates of scripture." The latter half is uncontroversial: all of life must be understood in terms of Scripture. And certainly our faith must rule our private life. That leaves whether our faith, true Christianity, must rule in public life. That's where Christians differ.<br /><br />The answer is not an easy rejection of Christian rule. If it were we would have ask questions like: Was Wilberforce wrong to fight in Parliament against slavery? And Shaftesbury against child labour? And Elizabeth Fry against prison reform? And Carey against sati and footbinding? And Bishop Tutu and Chief Luthuli against apartheid? And Gary Haugen & IJM against human trafficking? And the pro-lifers against abortion? Yes, we should live quiet humble lives and honour & pray for secular rulers. But in non-totalitarian societies we have responsibilities as citizens. Should we not protest and resist evil? <br /><br />In South Africa the evangelicals for the most part ignored apartheid and neither protested not resisted it. We remained silent. Was that a godly gospel response? When we preach the gospel now do we have more or less credibility among the black population?<br /><br />There is no clear line between private & public. As soon as you leave home, Laurie, and conduct your business you're in the public sphere. And knowing you you would conduct your business in a Christian manner and according to Christian principles. In your sphere of business you would rule!<br /><br />Western secularists want us to keep our Christian faith - religion as they see it - to the private sphere, to not influence our politics, education and economics. But anyone who understands Christianity knows that is impossible; there is no sphere of life that is outside Christ's lordship. And secularists themselves do not practise what they ask of us: they impose their ungodly beliefs on us, some of which result in evil laws and injustice. So we are to accept their rule when they gain power but if somehow a group of Christians gain power through the ballot box then that is the imposition of religion and a confusion of church and state. <br /><br />to be continuedJohn Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115879045701395533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-13419394293559006432012-03-17T20:05:10.782-07:002012-03-17T20:05:10.782-07:00Well, Hydriotaphia, you've made me turn to Wik...Well, Hydriotaphia, you've made me turn to Wikipedia to look up "tetramorph"! Wonderful!<br /><br />I've had more than enough of the American exceptionalism which has tended to permeate the church here. I love that verse you shared.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-3370949119590782862012-03-17T08:58:36.137-07:002012-03-17T08:58:36.137-07:00It seems harsh to speak of pruning for a more vigo...It seems harsh to speak of pruning for a more vigorous shoot to grow in relation to human suffering, nevertheless this is what happened to Christian faith in Russia during the 20th century. <br /><br />One of my favourites as a choir-boy which has always stuck to me believing Christianity to be international and never nation-state orientated, is the wonderful hymn and example of Christ's tetramorphic totality, exemplified by the Gospels and early Christian iconography-<br /><br />In Christ there is no East or West,<br />In Him no South or North;<br />But one great fellowship of love<br />Throughout the whole wide earth. -Kevin Faulknerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15482886706239506749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-52609107546405174952012-03-16T22:27:42.753-07:002012-03-16T22:27:42.753-07:00Excellent post!Excellent post!Betsy Markmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13600148899348868100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-89366265149383909302012-03-16T21:10:25.820-07:002012-03-16T21:10:25.820-07:00Laurie, I am right with you on this one. The (Chri...Laurie, I am right with you on this one. The (Christian) far right just dismays me!WhiteStonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00345496310218224780noreply@blogger.com