tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post6466395825213691595..comments2023-12-18T19:38:22.023-08:00Comments on The Good Portion: in which I discuss the unthinkableLaurie M.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comBlogger98125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-52093253242857593972010-03-07T20:36:08.464-08:002010-03-07T20:36:08.464-08:00For the sake of my family and work-a-day life, the...For the sake of my family and work-a-day life, the time has come that I bring an end to the discussion here. Keeping up with it has begun consuming far too much of my energy and "free" moments. I hope any of you reading this far will remember to keep the Schatz family in your prayers - there is more suffering surrounding this than I or anyone else can really conceive of.<br /><br />If you would like to read what others have had to say on this side of the discussion, I recommend the following link by Tulip Girl where she has compiled a long list of articles by writers other than myself - a helpful resource. <br />http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2010/02/who-is-speaking-out-against-abuse/<br /><br />I will leave existing comments intact, but future comments will be disabled. I would like to thank you all for your input.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-12373287070022506152010-03-07T17:19:21.767-08:002010-03-07T17:19:21.767-08:00Zedek said:
"I am sure that the Pearls never ...Zedek said:<br />"I am sure that the Pearls never speak of hitting a child on the back where his vital organs can be damaged."<br /><br />Here is a quote from Michael Pearl, found at http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2001/october/01/in-defense-of-biblical-chastisement-part-2/<br /><br />"Where on the body?<br /><br />The Bible says, “the rod is for the back.” That would include anything that is not the front—the back from the shoulders down to the feet ... But when you are engaging the child in serious chastisement, the small of the back down to the thighs is the most effective."Hermana Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06700181081812245514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-51064759506660170082010-03-07T09:38:25.478-08:002010-03-07T09:38:25.478-08:00Zedek,
This is Laurie's husband. The statemen...Zedek,<br />This is Laurie's husband. The statement that you have just quoted is Michael Pearl's statement to the press and police. Personally, I find it unnerving that he states outright that they do not teach corporal punishment. Corporal punishment is spanking. We as a society have readily available to anyone many commonly agreed upon dictionaries of the English language which define corporal punishment as exactly what the Pearls recommend. (Do understand that this child was spanked to death, probably something both the parents and the Pearls never even imagined was possible. I certainly hadn't.)<br />Although, perhaps most unnerving about his earlier statement which you have just quoted is that basic human decency, much less Christian charity, would dictate that if one hears of a horrible tragedy like this, it would behoove one to say words to the effect of "We are very sorry to hear about your loss" or "our hearts go out to the people effected by this tragedy." Even if he then went on to defend himself. Michael Pearl offered nothing of the kind. He offered one statement to disassociate himself and another to laugh at us. To mock us. We who were at the child's funeral and saw the other children broken and in tears, we who are directly feeling the effects of a family that used to sit next to us in church who are now torn apart. There is no compassion, kindness or love here.<br />Therefore, it is now up to you to search your heart and see if the deportment of this man is such that you feel comfortable associating yourself with him. You decide if his behavior makes him worthy of your following his teachings. You are entirely free to do so. We, likewise, are conscience bound to speak freely about our experience and our view of the Pearl's teachings for the sake of the name of Christ and the Gospel. <br />You are responsible for the person you are, who you associate with, and what that communicates about you to the world at large. If you find that you are still willing and desirous to be associated with this man who behaves in this manner and teaches as he teaches, that is your decision and there is really nothing more to be said on the matter.Paul Mathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951893912611871578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-18233645729732155052010-03-07T09:23:07.017-08:002010-03-07T09:23:07.017-08:00In an attempt to illustrate this more clearly........In an attempt to illustrate this more clearly.....<br />A child with Attachment Disorder will pronounce the word correctly for everyone else and then only in the privacy of your home pronounce it wrong with sometimes an "in your face" kind of attitude. You will say, "now honey you just pronounced it right for Mrs. Jones, I heard you, why do you only say it wrong for Mommy?" Your child will then look you straight in the eye and firmly pronounce it wrong over and over and over again. You will think you are insane, you will think the child is trying to pull one over on you, no one will understand and you may feel like you are helpless and left with no options. It is a very lonely place to be. I've been there.<br /><br />So yes, while YOU would never discipline YOUR child for this you have no idea what they have been through with this child and why or how they could have seen this as a discipline issue.Christyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887928615513412979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-76747170310799684342010-03-07T09:16:06.742-08:002010-03-07T09:16:06.742-08:007373Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-17110423318744336532010-03-07T08:30:27.201-08:002010-03-07T08:30:27.201-08:00Also a very typical sign that the child has attach...Also a very typical sign that the child has attachment disorder is that the child is very engaging and friendly and the parents appear hostile and unreasonable. Look it up under clinical signs. You will find it everywhere. If the child was really as friendly and charming as everyone thought they were the parents would not be like they were. When our child was at the height of his issues before he started to heal he was extremely friendly and charming with strangers and he was intensely reactive and out of control at home biting, hitting, hurting himself, throwing up his food, not eating, eating too much etc. It was insane. The problem was that we could talk to no one about it because everyone thought he was so cute and did not understand when we tried to explain what was going on at home. Thankfully we got help, mostly through the internet and other resources but we would have been at a total loss without those resources. <br />These people needed help and compassion but now it is too late.<br /><br />http://www.attachmentdisorder.netChristyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887928615513412979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-18004599273185643452010-03-07T08:16:03.066-08:002010-03-07T08:16:03.066-08:00Zedek,
Part of the problem here, (and this is what...Zedek,<br />Part of the problem here, (and this is what I tried to explain before) is that this child most likely had attachment disorder. Until you have lived with a child with attachment disorder you will have no idea how their crazy insane behavior which makes no sense can affect you. A child with attachment disorder mispronouncing a word will look different from a normal healthy child mispronouncing a word. These children will make the parents seem unreasonable when you see them discipline their child for apparently innocent behavior. These children are master manipulators and they fight with all of their being against attaching to their new parents because they are afraid if attachment and they are afraid of love. It is a very complex disorder and spanking absolutely does not work. In their twisted mind they actually "want" the spanking because it further confirms in their mind that you don't love them no matter how "right" you do it. I thought that spanking was the answer until we adopted our son. We are still not totally against in certain very rare circumstances it but with him it is completely ineffective. I don't know how to explain this to you to help you understand without writing a book but I really feel for these people the Schatz's. What they did was wrong, they should have listened to God and not to man. But what saddens me the most is that they are viewed as insane and having "anger issues" because they spanked a child to death for something which in print appears to be nothing. To them it appeared to be a discipline issue and as a parent of a child with attachment disorder I can see how they may have thought that. Because they saw it as a discipline issue they followed MP's advice to discipline until the child submitted "sitting on them if need be". They figured that they needed to win this battle in order not to be the wimpy parents that MP talks about whose child ends up on welfare because the parent didn't spank them. However a child with AD would rather die than give in and submit and in this case that is exactly what happened. Do some quick research on attachment disorder. It is very difficult to parent a child like this and requires a lot of research, help and some very different parenting strategies. There is no quick fix as MP would want you to think.<br /><br />Is there anyone else reading this right now who has a child with attachment disorder who wants to chime in?Christyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887928615513412979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-80917897611836296342010-03-07T07:04:04.828-08:002010-03-07T07:04:04.828-08:00I just found the following:
We do not teach “corp...I just found the following:<br /><br />We do not teach “corporal punishment” nor “hitting” children. We teach parents how to train their children, which sometimes requires the limited and controlled application of a spanking instrument to hold the child’s attention on admonition. Over 1,000,000 parents have applied these Biblical principles with joyful results. <br /><br />The courts have never charged NGJ Ministries with teaching abuse; quite the contrary. In a former case where a woman owned one copy of To Train Up A Child, the prosecuting attorney used that very book as testimony against her out of control methods. Likewise Ramsey, the prosecutor in the Schatz case, is quick to point out that No Greater Joy does not advocate spanking to the point of serious injury. <br /><br />If indeed these parents were abusive, and that has not yet been proven by the courts, it is regretful that our teachings were not able to turn them from their predisposition to abusive habits. Those of us who deal with substance abuse, psychological impairment, and family issues, try to make positive changes in every person, but sometimes our best efforts are too little or too late. But for the sake of our precious children, we must double our efforts and move forward. <br /><br />Michael Pearl, CEO <br />No Greater Joy Ministries, Inc <br /><br />I have discussed this at length with my wife (of 32 years) and we agree that we should not be blaming the Pearls for this tragedy. This amounts to doing to them what the Pharisees did to Jesus as they conspired and then put him to death. This is also what the currently insane culture will do to each of us as we speak and do the truth (which they hate).<br /><br />As I say this I do not condone all that the Pearls teach. I agree totally with only man, Jesus, and I don't yet understand all he said.<br /><br />I am sure that the Pearls never speak of hitting a child on the back where his vital organs can be damaged. No person in his right mind, or of normal intelligence, could have "disciplined" the Schatz children as their parents allegedly did. Also, I do not think you will find in the Pearls' writings any admonitions to spank a child, especially a foreign born child, for mispronouncing words. Our younger son has a speech impediment. Have we ever spanked him because he can't talk clearly? Of course not. Only a fool would!<br /><br />My advice is to put the blame on the wrongdoers, evidently the parents themselves.Zedekhttp://zedek.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-90395228787063485482010-03-06T20:16:11.147-08:002010-03-06T20:16:11.147-08:00I've looked and hoped for such a response. So...I've looked and hoped for such a response. So far, sadly, this is all there has been.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-12844203618419776882010-03-06T20:03:07.953-08:002010-03-06T20:03:07.953-08:00If the Pearls have offered no sympathy in this mat...If the Pearls have offered no sympathy in this matter, but only "laughed," then I agree with you, that is disgusting.<br /><br />Please, anyone, have you seen the Pearls express any sympathy with respect to this horrible case? I looked somewhat, but found none. I thought that certainly there would be something. <br /><br />And, it is certainly true that a teacher is more accountable than another, so the Pearls bear the burden of their teaching.Zedekhttp://zedek.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-36526863492489789942010-03-06T19:31:55.061-08:002010-03-06T19:31:55.061-08:00If you understood attachment disorder you would un...If you understood attachment disorder you would understand why this couple may have looked at mispronouncing a word as direct disobedience. I know of adoptive parents who have mentioned how their child knew how to tie his shoe, pronounce a word, read, recognize a letter all of a sudden go "blank". It could seem to a parent that the child was being defiant and needed to be disciplined. While there is no way they should have done what they did I can understand how they may have viewed this as a discipline issue. And with quotes like this from Michael Pearl.....<br /><br />"If you are just beginning to attempt to control an already rebellious child who runs from discipline and is too incoherent to listen, then use whatever force is necessary to bring him to bay. If you have to sit on him to spank him then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring, and are unmoved by his wailing. Defeat him totally. Accept no conditions for surrender. No compromise. You are to rule over him as a benevolent sovereign. Your word is final.”<br /><br />You are telling me he should not take any blame in this?<br /><br />You think they are saddened over this tragedy? Wrong again. I just read this on their Facebook fan page today and I was so mad I wanted to spit. I can't believe I liked these people.<br /><br />http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=no+greater+joy&init=quick#!/note.php?note_id=378945952575<br /><br />The man is so full of pride he can't even offer sympathy for what happened. Someone followed his advice to the "T" and a child died and he offers no sympathy???? How about, "I'm so sorry that somebody may have misinterpreted what I said (although they didn't) and I am going to do everything I can to make sure that this doesn't happen again."??? Nothing. Just pride, self-defense and further criticism of those who don't do it his way.Christyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12887928615513412979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-37024343840226741072010-03-06T19:22:23.827-08:002010-03-06T19:22:23.827-08:00As I said, my friends are responsible for their ac...As I said, my friends are responsible for their actions. The justice system will decide what that accountability will look like.<br /><br />The Pearls are responsible for their words. The right of free speech applies to them and me. The right to disagree and state our reasons applies to us all.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-65557053214177694662010-03-06T19:15:23.778-08:002010-03-06T19:15:23.778-08:00Are you actually taking issue with my calling the ...Are you actually taking issue with my calling the parents who murdered their daughter "idiots?" What would you call them?<br /><br />I find it amazing that you criticize the Pearls more than this "sweet" woman who used to go to your church. No person in his or her right mind whips a child for mispronouncing a word. I challenge you to find one thing the Pearls have written that would define this as a disobedient act that should be punished. If you do, then I will publicly state that the Pearls are as much idiots as these mistaken murderers.<br /><br />But, I doubt that you can find it....<br /><br />You are criticizing the wrong folk. I could find a thousand things wrong with your theology if I wanted to. That's not what we are called to do. None of us understand as we ought to understand. Read 1 Cor. 8. <br /><br />Let us love with a pure heart and seek to do better. I am sure the Pearls grieve as much as you over this tragedy, but they have been savagely attacked.<br /><br />It is fine and right for you to have mercy and grace for this deluded couple, but they are responsible for their delusion, not the Pearls.Zedekhttp://zedek.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-85064698625193751612010-03-06T18:59:30.159-08:002010-03-06T18:59:30.159-08:00Laurie,
Forgive me, then, if I have misunderstood...Laurie,<br /><br />Forgive me, then, if I have misunderstood you. I thought that you held them responsible for this child's murder. Don't you?Zedekhttp://zedek.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-24844047995478470012010-03-06T18:15:51.059-08:002010-03-06T18:15:51.059-08:00Zedek,
That my friends will be held accountable i...Zedek,<br /><br />That my friends will be held accountable is not only a given, but I stated so directly in my post. It is as it should be.<br /><br />It is entirely appropriate, however, for me to publicly dispute a doctrine which is publicly taught. Nor is it libelous to quote someone's teaching verbatim, disagree with it and then explain what I find wrong with it and what it might lead to if taken literally and seriously - something every teacher should consider with any doctrine he promotes. Others have added to this discussion both in agreement and disagreement. This is what is known as debate.<br /><br />On the other hand, if I had called the Pearls, people whom I've never met, "idiots," though freedom of speech gives me that right, my conscience would then accuse me of slander and unkindness. As it stands, I have not spoken to the personal character of the Pearls or questioned their motives; I have merely addressed their doctrine.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-24657971321687515752010-03-06T17:35:21.235-08:002010-03-06T17:35:21.235-08:00Laurie,
I think you have done a good job giving l...Laurie,<br /><br />I think you have done a good job giving links to the Pearl's writings. But, I am seeing a grievous thing here on your page. Many of you seem to be blaming a theology on this little girl's death. Theology did not kill her; stupid parents did. They are responsible for their mean and cruel actions and it is slanderous to suggest the Pearls are responsible for that death.<br /><br />The murderers simply demonstrate the state of most of the sheep in God's churches today who follow the teaching of their particular pope, I mean pastor, without thinking for themselves.<br /><br />My wife and I have raised five lovely children, ages 16 to 28, and we have had to discipline with a rod. We use the rod the Pearls describe, and it has been quite effective. It stings, but does not injure (unless used by an idiot). It is better than a wooden paddle or stick because it does not break, if too weak, or injure, if too thick. It is better than the hand because the hand can wrench the back when spanking the buns.<br /><br />I do not lift the Pearls on any pedestal. Neither do I the teaching of any man. We need to learn to hear God for ourselves and until we do, we have his written word to guide us. He tells us to use the rod to correct the child. I'm afraid too many who have commented seem to have fallen into the world's trap of refusing to discipline along with refusing to call a sin a sin, all under the guise of grace and mercy. But, in Christ mercy and justice have kissed and we do well to learn what that means.<br /><br />I have a lot of teachings on that on my page at http://zedek.us I encourage to read some things there.<br /><br />Best wishes.<br />ZedekZedekhttp://zedek.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-54996767512222177742010-03-05T20:15:09.271-08:002010-03-05T20:15:09.271-08:00Laurie, I am so glad that you are continuing to su...Laurie, I am so glad that you are continuing to support this couple. They obviously need it...regardless of how this happened or why. It is a horrific event and there are wounded ones all throughout. All need the healing that only our L-rd Yeshua/Jesus can provide. We are all wounded broken creatures. We are all fallen creatures. <br /><br />I am a home schooler who, on rare occasions does believe in spanking...not "hitting" or "beating", but appropriate spanking. And it is after nothing else has helped. There are many ways to discipline a child and train them up. We focus on those ways as much as we possibly can. We also pray a LOT for wisdom and fruitful creativity. <br /><br />You and your husband are in a tough place. Your writing and support of this family is commendable. And yes...we all need to pray for the children, as well as the parents and those who will be taking care of the children from here on out. My heart goes out to all who have been touched by this.OneSurvivorhttp://asurvivorsthoughtsonlife.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-15962669854090800522010-03-05T11:09:31.950-08:002010-03-05T11:09:31.950-08:00Thank you for sharing this. It helps me to see th...Thank you for sharing this. It helps me to see them as people with misguided hearts instead of... well, I'm sure you can imagine.Christyhttp://www.xanga.com/twofu_1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-73645455169626651872010-03-04T10:49:17.425-08:002010-03-04T10:49:17.425-08:00Thank you so much for sharing this remarkable pers...Thank you so much for sharing this remarkable personal story that sheds light for all us who have been horrified at Lydia's heinous death. <br /><br />It is very helpful for those who are speaking out about this tragedy and the theology that led to it to have a first hand account of the situation like yours. The internet is a great communication tool but since anyone can post anytime about anything or anyone else it is sometimes difficult to seperate the truth from misrepresentations and outright lies.<br /><br />When I first learned about Michael and Debi Pearl's books role in the "discipline" methods allegedly used by the Shatz's I discovered this website authored by David Cloud. http://www.wayoflife.org/files/ddca45e5240075221b3b35eaf091d868-72.html <br />Although I have no affiliation with this blogger, it struck me as a balanced and reasonable overview of where the No Greater Joy ministry goes terribly awry. <br /><br />I will pray for your healing for you and your family and for the strength and wisdom for your readers and all of us watching this horror story to be able to continue to know His wisdom and truth as it relates to the Pearls training methods. <br /><br />I pray that healing and truth will come swiftly and fully as we seek to understand the lies behind this method of child "training." <br /><br />As the parent of a child who died an unnecessary and preventable death, I know intimately the exruciating suffering involved when a child leaves us so early and my heart goes out to all who knew these precious children.<br /><br />In His Abundant Grace,<br />Mimi Rothschild<br />Co-Founder, Learning By Grace, Inc.Mimi Rothschildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18385160004515166733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-78658545654903539162010-03-03T21:40:16.456-08:002010-03-03T21:40:16.456-08:00Dear Laurie,
Thank you for your incredibly person...Dear Laurie,<br /><br />Thank you for your incredibly personal and wise blog post about this precious family and their so very sad story of loss. May the Lord continue to strengthen you and give you a voice to help people (especially in the Christian homeschool community) to process all of this. His grace is so evident in what you are saying about all of this. <br /><br />JulieJuliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04348554895426550869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-41111877159537215812010-03-03T14:24:19.143-08:002010-03-03T14:24:19.143-08:00I am a homeschoooler, and this saddens me to no en...I am a homeschoooler, and this saddens me to no end. I hate that we are associated with this type of sociopathic behavior. I hope that this is not typical--certainly not in our home!<br /><br />I was raised in a fundamentalist christian home. My father and mother spanked us. The teaching sin the churches we went to weren't so far off from the Pearls. Thankfully, three of the four children in our family have grown up and out of the Christianity. Spanking didn't make us happy or obedient. It made us angry, rebellious, and lonely. It took me many years to get over the teachings that I grew up with .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-74286310948685048122010-03-01T23:26:32.177-08:002010-03-01T23:26:32.177-08:00Wow, I am speechless. In my country there is a hug...Wow, I am speechless. In my country there is a huge debate going on with Christians unfortunately on the side of being completely pro smacking the crap out of your children it seems. I hope some of them see this story. I will tweet it actually. <br /><br />Here in NZ we made it illegal to use the defence of 'reasonable force' on children a few years ago. I support that law change, as it doesn't say not to spank children, simply that it is illegal inflict serious harm on them (the same protection we adults have funnily enough). One of the reasons why I support this law change is I think it would stop misguided parents like this from behaving this way. <br /><br />Oh and on a personal note I was whipped with a horse whip as a child and it did nothing but lower my self esteem. It breaks my heart to think that they are profiting from promoting this sort of abuse. There are many studies that show the damage it causes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-55808611878918983262010-03-01T15:49:54.730-08:002010-03-01T15:49:54.730-08:00For any still following this thread, TulipGirl has...For any still following this thread, TulipGirl has been busy compiling a list of articles addressing this topic here: <br /><br />http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2010/02/who-is-speaking-out-against-abuse/comment-page-1/#comment-16656<br /><br />And she also has many articles of her own addressing the problems inherent in the Pearl system.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-56522481835587733122010-03-01T13:33:14.936-08:002010-03-01T13:33:14.936-08:00Melinda,
Thank you.
Sister Lisa,
You may e-mail ...Melinda, <br />Thank you.<br /><br />Sister Lisa,<br />You may e-mail me via the link on my profile page. I tried to find an address for you through yours but wasn't able.Laurie M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15840896949617719814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3441908040982501903.post-78502349611128605792010-03-01T10:01:17.688-08:002010-03-01T10:01:17.688-08:00Laurie, please email me. I need to talk to you. Th...Laurie, please email me. I need to talk to you. ThanksSisterlisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697215030563741501noreply@blogger.com